ChicagoBus.org - For People Who Like Buses

ChicagoBus.org Transit Forums

Jump to content


More Proposed Extensions


19 replies to this topic

#1 sw4400

sw4400

    Member

  • Members
  • 3797 posts

Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

I found this while trying to find a little "L" History. It seemed interesting enough to post...

 

  • Clinton St. Subway: This proposed subway would run through the west Loop, connecting the Red Line near North/Clybourn to the line again near Cermak/Chinatown. From North/Clybourn, this subway would run south along Larrabee St., then under the Chicago River to Clinton St. in the west Loop. Running south under Clinton, the subway would pass Ogilvie Transportation Center and Union Station, with connections to Metra trains. It would then continue south on Clinton until about 16th St., where it would turn east, cross the Chicago River again and rejoin the line just north of the Cermak-Chinatown stop. This project was estimated to cost $3 billion with no local funding source identified.

It is a wiki article, I know...

 

Ok, seriously... I can't get the direct page to link up, so just search Chicago 'L' - Wikipedia on Ask.com. You'll see the article there.



#2 4CottageGrove95th

4CottageGrove95th

    Member

  • Members
  • 51 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona
  • Favorite Bus:"New Look" GMC 9600s. Favorite L cars: 2400s. Favorite NYC transit line(s): J, Z (Broadway-Nassau), F (6th Ave-Culver), 7 (Flushing) and D (West End-Grand Concourse)

Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

Although I doubt that this line would ever become a reality (e.g., the Circle Line), it sounds a lot like the IND G crosstown line for the New York Transit system. On the G, you can shoot crosstown between Queens and Brooklyn  without  ever having to go through Manhattan like you would have to do if you took the F train. However, the Clinton line sounds like a plan if they could ever get the money to build it.

I found this while trying to find a little "L" History. It seemed interesting enough to post...

 

  • Clinton St. Subway: This proposed subway would run through the west Loop, connecting the Red Line near North/Clybourn to the line again near Cermak/Chinatown. From North/Clybourn, this subway would run south along Larrabee St., then under the Chicago River to Clinton St. in the west Loop. Running south under Clinton, the subway would pass Ogilvie Transportation Center and Union Station, with connections to Metra trains. It would then continue south on Clinton until about 16th St., where it would turn east, cross the Chicago River again and rejoin the line just north of the Cermak-Chinatown stop. This project was estimated to cost $3 billion with no local funding source identified.

It is a wiki article, I know...



#3 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:50 PM

All sorts of things have been proposed including this. It was supposed to be a 3 level transit center, with CTA on one, Metra on the other, and Amtrak on the third.

 

About as likely as building the Airport Express (especially as a new L over the UP NW or a maglev), Daley's Mid City Line, and about 100 other proposals that went nowhere.

 

Still not sure why CTA thinks it needs another 846 rail cars, though. :P



#4 geneking7320

geneking7320

    Member

  • Members
  • 800 posts
  • Location:Chicago,IL
  • Favorite Bus:Marmon-Herrington (CTA 9000's ETB)

Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

Since Busjack mentioned a maglev I figured I'd throw this idea out:

 

How about and a route connecting General Mitchell, O'Hare, Midway, Gary, and South Bend airports!

 

I know it would cost billions and our grandchildren probably wouldn't live to see it...



#5 sw4400

sw4400

    Member

  • Members
  • 3797 posts

Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:44 PM

What about the Circle Line that was proposed in the article? It mentions Phase 1(restoration of Paulina Connector) has been done in 2005 and Phase 2(link 18th on the Pink Line to Ashland on the Orange Line with a new elevated structure running through a large industrial area) according to the article has had preliminary engineering work. According to that article, four new stations will be created: 18th/Clark, Cermak/Blue Island, Roosevelt/Paulina, and Congress/Paulina.

 

  • 18th/Clark will be built along the Orange Line in the Chinatown neighborhood with a direct transfer to the Cermak/Chinatown station on the Red Line.

 

  • Cermak/Blue Island will be built on newly built elevated tracks in the Pilsen neighborhood.

 

  • Roosevelt/Paulina will be located on the Pink Line in the Illinois Medical District.

 

  • Congress/Paulina will be built above the Eisenhower Expressway with a direct transfer to the Illinois Medical District on the Blue Line. Existing stations will provide service to the United Center.

If preliminary engineering work is being done, the only phase left would be Phase 3, which consists of the following and due to costs is only being studied currently:

 

  • Due to densely populated areas will require an underground alignment(Subway). The link doesn't mention where, but I remember a discussion on this forum about an Ashland Subway and would presume that is the subway that would be built in the proposed Phase 3.

Does that mean that this "Circle Line" may still get done someday after they get done completing Phase 2 and sorting out the more difficult Phase 3 of this project?



#6 See Tea Eh

See Tea Eh

    Member

  • Members
  • 413 posts

Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

Since Busjack mentioned a maglev I figured I'd throw this idea out:

 

How about and a route connecting General Mitchell, O'Hare, Midway, Gary, and South Bend airports!

 

I know it would cost billions and our grandchildren probably wouldn't live to see it...

 

Not CTA related, but if we really had a transportation policy in this country, we'd invest in a good medium-to-high-speed railroad linking O'Hare with the Midwest region, with frequent service on dedicated tracks.  Some trains would run to downtown Chicago, serving regional travel needs, and some would serve O'Hare, taking care of longer-distance (and international) connectivity.  Depending on the route, some could perhaps serve both, during off-peak times.

 

Milwaukee/Mitchell would be a good secondary airport, and Midway could probably hold its own for traffic.

 

There's really no point in having one rail line connect all of the above airports, in particular Gary and South Bend.  There's no conceivable scenario where one would be scheduled to fly into South Bend with a connecting flight from O'Hare or Midway.  The actual traffic is generally to/from the cities, not the airports, so it's more important to connect an airport hub with a bunch of city centers.

 

A good regional rail system would reduce (or in some cases, eliminate) the need for short-distance flights out of O'Hare which only serve as feeders to long-haul flights.  If trains could serve those markets instead, that would free up capacity at O'Hare that would possibly eliminate the need for relief airports in the Chicago region.

 

Take a look at how the TGV transformed air travel in and around France over the last three decades as a model for how this could work.

 

Of course, to tie this in to a relevant transit topic, one way that would be helpful in having this sort of project succeed would be good transit connections at the destinations.  Chicago, relatively speaking, actually has pretty good transit, but other cities such as Indianapolis, Detroit, Toledo, etc. really leave a lot to be desired when it comes to transit connectivity.



#7 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:45 PM

What about the Circle Line that was proposed in the article?...

You ought to go back to the CTA Alternatives Analysis Page instead of relying on some old article. The last entry there was 2009. It speaks for itself, but the import was that (1) we gotta kill Mare Daley's Mid City Line, and (2) we can't come to any conclusion on the subway between Lake & Paulina and North and Clybourn,

 

Besides that, the two things Emanuel says are unfunded are the two Red Line projects. He hasn't mentioned anything about the Circle Line.

 

So, instead of wasting space copying something, just consider the Circle Line dead. And you can say about the same thing about the Orange Line to Ford City.

 

To summarize: there hasn't been anything new built here since the Orange Line and O'Hare extension in the 1980s, and those were built because Jane Byrne turned in the Interstate highway money for the Crosstown Expressway. The two new starts were two repair jobs (apparently the Brown Line one was a $half billion joke), and so long as the story is "we don't have a source of funding," that is how it is going to be. Compare that to the Elgin-O'Hare and O'Hare bypass tollways, which, being self supporting, got all the necessary federal approvals. But it has been 6 years with no end in sight for the consultants on the CTA proposals.



#8 mkohut

mkohut

    Member

  • Members
  • 589 posts
  • Favorite Bus:New Look

Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

I lost count on how much money has been wasted for consultants



#9 jtrosario

jtrosario

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:59 AM

(Imaginary) New Phase 2 - Use Center running BRT on Ashland from Orange Line to Division/Blue Line stations.

 

What about the Circle Line that was proposed in the article? It mentions Phase 1(restoration of Paulina Connector) has been done in 2005 and Phase 2(link 18th on the Pink Line to Ashland on the Orange Line with a new elevated structure running through a large industrial area) according to the article has had preliminary engineering work. According to that article, four new stations will be created: 18th/Clark, Cermak/Blue Island, Roosevelt/Paulina, and Congress/Paulina.



#10 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:48 AM

(Imaginary) New Phase 2 - Use Center running BRT on Ashland from Orange Line to Division/Blue Line stations.

Undoubtedly imaginary, but then it wouldn't be a circle, and someone would have to transfer.



#11 sw4400

sw4400

    Member

  • Members
  • 3797 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

Looks like members of the Chicago Rapid Transit Coalition want a stop on the Blue Line at Nagle and Bryn Mawr. Story



#12 jajuan

jajuan

    Member

  • Members
  • 4908 posts
  • Location:West Rogers Park
  • Favorite Bus:MAN Americana, NF D40LF 1000 series, NF DE40LF 800 series

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

Looks like members of the Chicago Rapid Transit Coalition want a stop on the Blue Line at Nagle and Bryn Mawr. Story

If they got it out of the realm of fantasy to reality, the doors in that instance would open on the left rather than the right as jokingly said in the article.



#13 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:46 PM

If they got it out of the realm of fantasy to reality, the doors in that instance would open on the left rather than the right as jokingly said in the article.

Also fantasy:

  • Overcoming the prior complaint about the potential of riff raff getting off in the neighborhood.
  • In the Skokie and supposedly Evanston cases, the local governments had to get the grants.
  • There isn't really a business area near there to be served or TiFed, Somebody told me that Rosario's Noodles closed (I can't vouch for the source, but that's about all that there was there).


#14 jajuan

jajuan

    Member

  • Members
  • 4908 posts
  • Location:West Rogers Park
  • Favorite Bus:MAN Americana, NF D40LF 1000 series, NF DE40LF 800 series

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:37 PM

Also fantasy:

  • Overcoming the prior complaint about the potential of riff raff getting off in the neighborhood.
  • In the Skokie and supposedly Evanston cases, the local governments had to get the grants.
  • There isn't really a business area near there to be served or TiFed, Somebody told me that Rosario's Noodles closed (I can't vouch for the source, but that's about all that there was there).

I also was perplexed by the part of the article that said there would have been a Bryn Mawr/Nagle station when the rail line was first extended to O'Hare but it got scuttled by neighborhood concerns of crime being drawn to the area and now a few decades later you have folks advocating to get a station placed in that spot. What's changed in that time outside of the argument that gas prices are out of control to make that neighborhood want a station there today? All the arguments about Taft high school being there and it would help spur local business are conceivably the same arguments that would have been made for the station at the time of the O'Hare extension. And if anyone in that area is looking at easier transit access to the airport there's still that issue of paying $5 leaving O'Hare if not using an unlimited pass or any version of the Chicago Card when paying full fare to get also get past. Also the longest stretch between stations on the CTA system, if you don't round up like the person they're quoting apparently is doing, wouldn't be that stretch between Harlem and Jefferson Park, but the one on the Green Line between Roosevelt and 35th/Bronzeville/IIT.



#15 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:46 PM

...Also the longest stretch between stations on the CTA system, if you don't round up like the person they're quoting apparently is doing, wouldn't be that stretch between Harlem and Jefferson Park, but the one on the Green Line between Roosevelt and 35th/Bronzeville/IIT.

Also gets down to the point often made in the 80s that the purpose of rapid transit was rapid transit, and basically the only place where that was true was the O'Hare extension. Like those who defend the Jarvis station, apparently the L is supposed to stop more often than a bus.

 

At least the proposed Cermak-Green Line station is supposed to be funded by TIF money, and has the justification that they are trying to develop a blues district at 21st and Michigan.



#16 jajuan

jajuan

    Member

  • Members
  • 4908 posts
  • Location:West Rogers Park
  • Favorite Bus:MAN Americana, NF D40LF 1000 series, NF DE40LF 800 series

Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:20 PM

Also gets down to the point often made in the 80s that the purpose of rapid transit was rapid transit, and basically the only place where that was true was the O'Hare extension. Like those who defend the Jarvis station, apparently the L is supposed to stop more often than a bus.

 

At least the proposed Cermak-Green Line station is supposed to be funded by TIF money, and has the justification that they are trying to develop a blues district at 21st and Michigan.

Yes this is true, and if you wouldn't be cutting too much into the rapid part of rapid transit with the station to be placed at Cermak on the Green Line since you still have good spacing between stations. Though that argument could be made about a Bryn Mawr/Nagle Blue Line station, like you I can't really see what economic draw would be there for that station especially now that you brought up your previous point that the one significant business there is no longer there. They made the point about Morgan being built for the Green and Pink Lines and the Oakton-Skokie station on the Yellow, but Morgan has the justification of being located in the midst of an established industrial and manufacturing area west of the Kennedy and to your prior point the Oakton station was funded by the local governments of that station's surrounding communities.



#17 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:15 PM

...but Morgan has the justification of being located in the midst of an established industrial and manufacturing area west of the Kennedy...

All indications, including this RedEye article, were to the effect that the benefit of the Morgan station was to the Randolph Market and Fulton Market, not industrial land on Lake, even though the article cited someone who had factories.



#18 jajuan

jajuan

    Member

  • Members
  • 4908 posts
  • Location:West Rogers Park
  • Favorite Bus:MAN Americana, NF D40LF 1000 series, NF DE40LF 800 series

Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

No need for the article link. Perhaps industrial wasn't the right word I was looking for in terms that it steers the mind to heavy machinery but I was in fact thinking of the meat processors and meat factories along that area in my post. 



#19 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:55 AM

No need for the article link. Perhaps industrial wasn't the right word I was looking for in terms that it steers the mind to heavy machinery but I was in fact thinking of the meat processors and meat factories along that area in my post. 

But the impetus apparently was people who were eating that meat, or kung poa noodles ....



#20 Busjack

Busjack

    Member

  • Members
  • 12619 posts
  • Favorite Bus:RTA pumpkin GM 4523

Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:57 AM

While Chicago struggles along with money only for consultants and not being able even to keep existing lines in good repair. the Daily Herald has an article about New York expansion projects.





Reply to this topic



  

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users